Jesus Christians.com

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/07/joel-osteen-america-pastor


An article which does a good summary on the Megachurch.
One interesting aspect is that this type of Church has crossed the racial and social barriers. Churches in the US are usually highly racially segregated

Hi Ross,
That's an interesting thought there. I actually read a magazine article here in Kenya recently, which said church is the most racially segregated institution in the US. The article you've posted here just confirms that fact.

On a personal note, I actually used to watch Joel Osteen's television broadcast program on TBN growing up. He's a charismatic guy, with a nice smile, and appeals to a widely mixed racial audience.

As far as what he preaches, I would say he supports the prosperity gospel myth. However, I don't know if he focuses on it as heavily as, say, someone like Creflo Dollar. But the theology (prosperity) is in the frameworks of his teachings, without a doubt.

Anyway, what I really find interesting is the fact that prosperity theology seems to be the one doctrine that can shatter the racial barriers which currently exist within America over religion. Ironic that people are able to set aside their racial differences, because they are united in their love of money. If money can bring people of all races and cultures together now (at least on a surface level), then it's the exact thing the Anti-Christ is likely to use to achieve his ends in the end-times.

You are right there Joe, and the kind of ecstatic worship and praise that goes with it would easily be converted over to the antichrist for sure. This guy is a bit smarter than other prosperity preachers, in that he decided NOT to directly ASK for money as part of his preaching. Seeing as people often resist a high pressure salesman, he ends up with a more loyal long term following and people are more convinced he is "sincere", or cares not just about money.

Ironically, the other famous multiracial church in the US was the Peoples Temple(Jim Jones) What that means I am not sure.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/...urches-market-driven

Saddleback Church,Orange county LA, a critique

I remember when we were in Houston it was common for someone to reject taking a book from me and saying "Oh no, I don't need that, I go to Lakewood." At the time I had no idea what Lakewood was, so I'd just look at them blankly and ask what Lakewood was. Many times there were offended by that, like I had offended some dignitary or something like that.

I found this quote from Joel Osteen interesting:

"I believe you've got to repent of your sins; you've got to have a relationship with Christ. So I believe all the fundamental things, I just don't focus on that."

Instead he seems to focuses mainly on:

"You're going to be anointed, redeemed, blessed, prosperous, disciplined… You've got a great week coming!"


It is interesting that what's united people racially in the States is the desire for money, and the need from people who tell them how to get it (Joel Osteen). This is a general comment, which can get some people in trouble, but let me "keeps it real" for a minute. Poorer folk (who all over the world usually have darker skin) tend to be more upfront about their thoughts and intentions than their wealthy counterparts (who are usually more light skinned). I believe that it was white preachers who started the prosperity gospel and white preachers who are still in the limelight promoting it (currently Joel Osteen, but previously others like Jimmy Baker). The black preachers who are more upfront, shouting "mmooonnnneeeyyyyyy, to me! Let me put an annointing on this money, woooooooaaaaa!" are just being that, more upfront.

I think it's interesting that Osteen is being compared to Billy Graham. At a time when the Swaggarts and Bakkers were blatantly ripping people off as TV evangelists, Billy had respectability because he had made himself accountable to a board of directors. I still disagreed with Billy, because I knew that he was smart enough to know that he was not preaching the teachings of Jesus. It was a non-stop "ask Jesus into your heart" gospel that sold, and he knew that if he went beyond that, he was going to lose his popularity.

Now, with Osteem, he too has learned to be much more sophisticated than the other more blatant prosperity teachers. It was particularly refreshing to hear him talk to the interviewer about the fact that it ISN'T all roses for those who trust in God (although it's not clear how much of that actually comes across when he is on the stage). The most successful counterfeits are those that look most like the real thing.

On the other hand, if we rip up the weeds that look like (and may be growing close to) the real plants, then we can do damage too. So it pays to express genuine appreciation for the good things that Osteen is saying, at the same time that we get it very clear in our own minds that we are not here to defend Osteen, but to defend Jesus; and if Osteem (or his supporters there in Houston) is/are not happy with that, then too bad.

One side comment is that this guy seems to be a very good example of what they call a "charistmatic" leader. And certainly, the most charismatic leaders ARE the ones who are widely accepted by the system and system leaders. I, too, was reminded of Jim Jones as I read the article, and recalled how Jones had support from as high up as the White House before he came crashing down. Yet the anti-cult groups work on the other extreme, attacking groups just because they are small, new, and different... and then pretending that they have "charismatic" leaders who need to be "taken out". lol

I read a study today in which it says the respectability is almost as dangerous as greed.
I guess that gaining respect from society also means monetary support will come as well. Hence the link.

Well, we are not rich or respected, and that is a spiritually good place to be in.

Joe wrote:

Anyway, what I really find interesting is the fact that prosperity theology seems to be the one doctrine that can shatter the racial barriers which currently exist within America over religion. Ironic that people are able to set aside their racial differences, because they are united in their love of money. If money can bring people of all races and cultures together now (at least on a surface level), then it's the exact thing the Anti-Christ is likely to use to achieve his ends in the end-times.


Our friend has spoken my mind!

Although it can be nice to hear about racial barriers being broken, I'm more inspired by those barriers being shattered when the wealthy or "privileged" members of a given society tear down their own man-made barriers (like "gated communities"), walk out of these suburban spiritual deserts, and decide to live and work among those in need. Sounds a great deal more like what Jesus had in mind when he shared his good news and how to start with HIS blueprint.

As others have shared, if it's just the love of money bringing people together, than whatever love that exists between these people is likely to be shallow to the point of non-existence (with the rare exceptions of course).

I agree with Joe's observations about money uniting people in a bad way too.

What always bothers me about these sort of churches is how the rich and poor can sit side by side in the pews, supposedly serving the same God, and yet the rich do not see a responsibility on their part to equalise things a bit more, by sharing equally with the poor people in the congregation.

(To be fair, I do know that many churches in America do have some sort of welfare program for the poorest members of the congregation; but often these are linked with subtle actions which distinguish the people they are helping as second-class citizens.)

The American system is pretty strong in telling people that if they are poor its their own fault in some way, and with enough prayer and going to church one can become prosperous like the rich church goers! This means that the poor don't expect a handout from the rich and the rich can comfortably sit in the pews and enjoy their wealth.

Nevertheless, there are usually some welfare programmes organised by churches which at least FEED the hungry, after they have had the sermon