Jesus Christians.com

Etoo wrote:

We should remember what Jesus said about even birds don't have a house and they eat even without using money.

Great reminder, Etoo, about the fact that birds (and flowers) don't have paying jobs or use money and yet here they are, co-existing right alongside us humans!

Now if they can do it, what is it that keeps us from following their example? Could it really be that the love of money is THE root of ALL evil, which allows few to be disgustingly rich while the rest of the world struggles terribly just to get by, often with many of them being children who die every single day because of our greed?

Yes, without a doubt!

I'm reminded of the lyrics to a great song by a guy here in the US named Grant Lee Phillips:

"If only humankind were not so heartless now, selfish now---it's hard to love your fellow man. However can I help myself from harboring such evil?"

And fortunately we have Jesus' love and teachings to keep us from "harboring such evil", every time it shows up in our own heart.

The law is for the lawless, and Jesus' "commands" really are like "laws" in that regard. It's a shame that he even needed to make commands in the first place when what he really wants is for people to just learn to do what is right because they want to do what it right.

However, in a situation where people don't just naturally do what they should do, a law is a good place to START in teaching people to do what they should do. I think issues like forsaking all, being rich or poor, or giving to the poor all belong to that category.

It is like "abounding and being abased". It takes constant communication with God to know when is the right or appropriate time for each of those situations. The same is true for any issues regarding wealth.

I liked Sue's comments about the parable of the talents being about how to be responsible for wealth and I share her cringing, but there will always be people around who want to abuse the rules.

I also really like something Dave shared once about giving. He said that sometimes giving isn't so much about helping the one you give to as it is about helping ourselves to be more loving.

Every situation is different. Even rules like "give to those who ask" or "help the poor" are not absolute commands that can cater for every situation. God/Jesus is not some kind of static figure that can be put in a box, even if we quote his own commands back to him.

I firmly believe in the commands of Jesus, but I think there is a kind of liberation possible even beyond those commands, but that can only come AFTER breaking ourselves on the commands first.

How much should we give to the ones who ask for money?
Money. The bigger the better.

It won't make him rich. It won't save his soul. But the Bible says:
"the giving hand is happier than the receiving hand".

I don't donate to orgas, but to bums I see every day, who will spend my money in beer. And then, where's the problem? They NEED beer, because they have no friends, no mamas and papas, no shelter, no hope for the next day, no happiness at all except the next botle of beer.

And then, Jesus said:

"I came for the poors, I came for the sinners."

Excuse me but I don't have the Text at hands.

I have money and I'm happy to give. And I think I'm not giving enough.

Poor ones are the blessed ones, it's written many times in the NT.
I well know that the money I give them won't help them find a shelter: clean clothes; nice hair-cuff. I just say that they'll have happiness for twenty hours.

5 euros = 3 bottles of wine.

I receive 60 euros from the government each week.
I don't drink so much and I can share my money with the ones that don't have money, I mean, 30 for me, 30 for the bums.

Skies are open for bums. Jesus said it many times.


I think I'm much too selfish and I should give much more to bums, because they are much more suffering than me. They don't have a home. They don't receive money from the government. And they don't have a papa and a mama.

So NOW, I DECIDE THAT 50% percent of my money will finish in the hands of alcoholic bums.

I know they will drink with that. But until the return of God, drinking is everything they have.

Misery, you find it in Africa; and you can find it at the corner of your street.


Tht's all about MY money.

No offense, Damien, but you have NO IDEA about what real poverty is. There are people in the world who actually work all day and still do not have enough money to feed their family. Jesus said to give to the poor, not to give money to drunks and drug addicts. It's fine that you are giving to SOMEONE, but you need to get a bigger picture of the real world.

The problem with the poor here in Kenya can seem fairly depressing at times, and even disillusioning. Nevertheless, I know there is still hope; it's just hard to appreciate, due to all the greed and selfishness which permeates the country.

About poverty, a man might dig a field for a full day, and receive 100 ksh as payment in return. He can get a cup of tea, and the equivalent of a small, plain donut for about 20 ksh in most areas. That's breakfast. He can get some ugali (polenta) with vegetables for about 30-40 ksh if he chooses his restaurant wisely. That's lunch. Now what about dinner? He has 40 ksh left. What can he eat? Can he buy a soda for 20ksh as a treat, or is he out of money? What about his son, daughter, or orphan that he is supposed to be looking after? Can he give them anything? And what about fare for transportation to and from work? Can he pay for that, or does he need to walk?

As you can hopefully see from the picture - realistic - that I'm trying to paint, there are a lot of cases of REAL poverty here in Kenya. Not, 'I spent all my money on beer, and want a few cents to get another' type poverty. But real, 'I dug a shamba (field) for eight hours to get 100ksh, and now have to use that to feed both myself and my family, just to stay alive' poverty. You don't find that level of poverty EVERYWHERE in the country; you do find it in a lot of places.

What is the solution? For starters, my eyes were opened to some of the WEALTH that also exists in Kenya - not just wealthy tourists, but I mean filthy rich Kenyans themselves. There's a huge economic imbalance in the country. The cause? Greed.

I think on another thread, nationalism was compared to racism. Here in Kenya, I have noted how tribalism is also akin to racism (albeit the discrimination is largely based on one's 'mother tongue', rather than skin color). The Kikuyu tribe (the president's tribe) holds almost all of the power positions in the country, and the largest percentage of the country's wealth, as well. What about all the other tribes? Do they get to share in on the country's economic wealth, or is that just limited to specific tribes/people within the country?

It is noteworthy that one of the most primitive tribes in all the world, the Massai (they're the people you picture when you think of primitive Africa, walking around with spears and colored robes in scorching hot conditions), are being assimilated into the money economy as we speak. Because of their distinct culture, they have long been separated from the economic money system, relying on trading, etc. amongst their own tribe to disseminate resources. Now, however, you can find them with mobile phones, using 'm-pesa', and so on. A quick look at Revelation 13 , and a pair of open eyes, quickly points out the obvious of where it is all heading.

Anyway, there's a lot more I could say, but the bottom line is that greed is the main problem in the world today. The community has been saying it for years, Jesus said it two millenniums ago, and it still remains the case today. There's a war waging, between God, and money. The time is coming/here for everyone to decide which one they want to serve.

Hi Damien

I cant agree with a lot of you said.wouldnt it be better to buy the hungry person a meal?If someone is a alcoholic that is not a poor person that is a alcoholic.thats so different.A person who needs a meal needs food to live.or Shelter to survive the cold.when you see small children in foreign countries with no food and distended bellies there parents unable to buy them food because they have no money that is poverty to me.i feel for the person who is a alcohilic to the point they seem to need the drink but if i have only so much money to give my money would go to the child or family who had no choice in the matter they were born into.no opitions.no shelter to go to. no aa meetings offered free.there are poor in our own country as well.the father who was laid off and has run out of benifits but there are way more agencies here who help.food banks and salvation army.meal programs at schools.

I've been lucky in my life and not experiences poverty or hunger firt hand.but i know the waste and excess of the western counties.i was just watching a video about the freganism.the waste from the stores is sick.mind you the waste from homes is sick to.people are spolied and used to eating what they want to eat not what is needing to be used up.guilty of that my self plenty but trying to make a change there and be more observant of my own watste and my own roll and repsonsibility.

while its great you are willing to give away 50% of your money why do you want to give it to people who drink.your reasoning that its all they have doesnt make sense to me becasue you could say that some food is all the little kids have or some medicine and that by healing them or feeding them you make a real chance,you never know what any of those kids could be capable of doing if they got a chance to live. one might cure cancer. another might broker peace.given a chance through what you money can do which is to buy them life.my thoughts only.

Peter

Hi Damien. I just wrote a long reply to your post, but I lost it all. How frustrating. :grin: I'll try to recap.

I must say that I agree with the others. The poor you are talking about in Ireland or some other part of Europe are really not poor. The real poor would need food for hunger and NOT beer. I must disagree with you that beer is NOT a "need", but more like a "want".

To see the really poor and experience how they live, we have to go to the third world countries. Here in the west, we have been so far removed from poverty (and for so long) that we don't know what it is anymore.

Poverty, to most people in the west is simply a theory that other people suffer, and it is never something we experience at first hand. Perhaps you should go and spend some time in a poor country for a while. Just a suggestion.

Damien,you sound like a very caring person.

Thankyou for sharing that informtion Joe about what people earn and there costs of living.Makes a person think about the bounty we have in the USA.other places too.I am researching freegan lifestyles as I didnt no much about it at all.I have found some good information but another thing i thought of is that a person wants to take care not to gett too greedy and haul home stuff they have to look after then.have you seen the shows on hording?where people are bringing home way too much stuff and filling up there hole homes.

this could be an issue because all that junk would take time to keep in order and surely would take away from time better spent doing other things.plus all that junk would make me feel crowded.

Just a thought i had when I find myself now looking at dumpsters and what people leve on the curbs.i often think i could use that but then again i think about IF i need it really.

also no offence meant to anyone who thinks differnet but dont you think its better to give food to someone insted of cash if it seems like they are going to spend it on wine or beer.i would rather buy a meal for someone.i dont want to feed there addictions.maybe i am seeming judgemental.but that is how i feel.how do others handle being asked for money by beggers? do you give cash if you have some or do you buy them a burger or at least a snack?

Yeah, I think that's a good point redyucca, with regard to hoarding things. If you take it, just for the sake of hoarding it, then it may rob someone else of the oppertunity to actually make use of the thing. Also, it decreases the chance of your living quarters getting cluttered, if you refrain from taking things you don't need.

With regard to giving to people begging. I would agree that giving food is generally better than giving money (especially if food is what they are asking for), as then they at least have somthing to munch on. It doesn't seem very helpful to give someone money to help them fund their addiction. A more extreme way to look at it is, would it help to give someone money because they wanted to buy rope and hang themselves? But then each case is different, and I think there could be a situation where giving money for booze would be the right thing to do.